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Het originele bericht

Geplaatst door notserral, 09.07.2015 - 10:57
I'd like to bring up a discussion on Relentless Attack as I think it is too reinforcement efficient at the time.

First of all, RA is a nice strategy. In the beginners room everyone uses RA, since it is excellent for newbies - tanks are incredibly strong with 9 attack, they capture cities, and they have the highest priority in unit selection, so you don't have to do much in terms of micromanagement - just click and drag your way to victory.

Even for defense, you don't even have to think about what to build, since tanks have the same defense as infantry (5) and even the same cost. The fact that infantry don't have city bonus makes the unit even more useless. All you need to build is tanks.

This makes for a very hard to counter strategy and very easy to play at the early ranks. My experience playing PD against RA is that I'm always on the losing side, scrambling for units and trying to make the best ferries to boost the front lines. With IMP it's the same thing, perhaps worse since the often 50k starting games completely nullify imp's advantage. When I use RA I don't even need to wall off anything, just build tanks and attack other players. Seriously, I recommend everyone to just try it and see that it feels much easier than the other strategies.




What could be done

Obviously we don't want to mess with Perfect Defense, because then it would just open a can of worms on team games. And we don't want to nerf it into oblivion making it an auto lose strategy like Blitzkrieg. What I propose for RA is that we buff the range of attack units and make them cheaper, while making defensive units more expensive and less efficient, making it sort of a halfway to Blitz.

First nerfing tanks:
Remove the +1 attack from Tanks
This should bring Tanks into a less reinforcement efficient territory, making it hit a more visible wall against PD and increase the number of tanks needed to capture a city.

Remove the +1 defense from Tanks and add -1 defense
I don't think Tanks having good defense is a good idea. Removing the +1 defense will add the need to decide between creating defensive or offensive units.


Then, pushing the contrast between defense and offense
Add +1 range, -30 cost and -1 defense to bombers, destroyers, helis, stealth and subs
This would keep in with the idea of making offensive units more efficient.

Add -1 defense to militia and keep the +10 cost. Add -3 defense to Anti Air and +30 cost. Keep infantry nerfs.
Making defensive units less useful.




With these changes we position the strategy as very offensive, while diversifying its options and tools to fulfill that role, and make it less of a one unit wonder that it is today. Thoughts? What do you guys think?
10.07.2015 - 05:02
Make a poll and lets see what the community wants to nerf.
Laden...
Laden...
10.07.2015 - 05:23
How about this?

Remove the +1 attack to tanks.
Add +3 range and -1 defense to bombers.

It's not really a nerf (I think RA would still be as strong) to RA, but it's definitely a nerf to RA tanks.
Laden...
Laden...
10.07.2015 - 07:12
Geschreven door Azula., 10.07.2015 at 05:02

Make a poll and lets see what the community wants to nerf.



Remove -10 cost for tanks in all strategies... its cost is ridiculous compared to bombers and helicopters.
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Laden...
Laden...
10.07.2015 - 07:15
Soldier001
Account verwijderd
Geschreven door Goblin, 10.07.2015 at 07:12

Geschreven door Azula., 10.07.2015 at 05:02

Make a poll and lets see what the community wants to nerf.



Remove -10 cost for tanks in all strategies... its cost is ridiculous compared to bombers and helicopters.

lol so true
Laden...
Laden...
10.07.2015 - 09:54
Geschreven door Goblin, 10.07.2015 at 07:12

Geschreven door Azula., 10.07.2015 at 05:02

Make a poll and lets see what the community wants to nerf.



Remove -10 cost for tanks in all strategies... its cost is ridiculous compared to bombers and helicopters.

10/10 thats atwar dictatorship ^^
Laden...
Laden...
10.07.2015 - 10:37
No support. Sorry but I don't think ra is that OP.
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Laden...
Laden...
10.07.2015 - 10:45
Geschreven door minusSeven, 10.07.2015 at 10:37

No support. Sorry but I don't think ra is that OP.

Agreed. Let's just play and have fun.
Laden...
Laden...
10.07.2015 - 11:28
I think the biggest problem is that the RA tanks cost 90, which is the same amount as IMP tanks. We all know RA nails IMP in any single way, no denying that. Especially since 90% of the RA players pick countries like ukraine/poland etc. Low cost countries with decent reinforcements. That combo is just heartbreaking. If you are saying RA isn't op right now, than thats probably on you, but the strategy RA compared to almost all strategies is straight out OP.

RA basically made GC as a strategy useless, while alot of people made threads about strategies that needed boosts which included GC. Well this is certainly not how to make it.
As for saying we should make a poll to see what the ''community'' wants. Will be 100% unfair. Especially the people who came with the idea about a poll etc, always knew a way to kind of scam that poll. They will most likely pr their clanmembers and probably random people just to vote ''RA is fine right now'' and then use that as ''voice of community''.
(spoken out of experience)

I think blitz should've never got boosted and nerfed after that at all. Same goes for RA right now, I think after RA gets boosted/nerfed (whatever floats your boat) you guys should stop changing every couple months the strategies and maybe look at the strategies which havent been changed for years.. like GC/LB/DS/ (HW new).

For those who say ''RA is fine right now, stop complaining'' are plain straight hypocrites. They are afraid of losing their strategy that gives them a slight advantage so skills aren't really needed. (directed to the players who play RA 24/7, bcs otherwise they cant win)

inb4 clovis quoting me with bullshit again
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Geschreven door Guest14502, 11.10.2014 at 09:44

Waffel for mod 2015
Laden...
Laden...
10.07.2015 - 14:14
 Htin
Geschreven door Waffel, 10.07.2015 at 11:28

I think the biggest problem is that the RA tanks cost 90, which is the same amount as IMP tanks. We all know RA nails IMP in any single way, no denying that. Especially since 90% of the RA players pick countries like ukraine/poland etc. Low cost countries with decent reinforcements. That combo is just heartbreaking. If you are saying RA isn't op right now, than thats probably on you, but the strategy RA compared to almost all strategies is straight out OP.

RA basically made GC as a strategy useless, while alot of people made threads about strategies that needed boosts which included GC. Well this is certainly not how to make it.
As for saying we should make a poll to see what the ''community'' wants. Will be 100% unfair. Especially the people who came with the idea about a poll etc, always knew a way to kind of scam that poll. They will most likely pr their clanmembers and probably random people just to vote ''RA is fine right now'' and then use that as ''voice of community''.
(spoken out of experience)

I think blitz should've never got boosted and nerfed after that at all. Same goes for RA right now, I think after RA gets boosted/nerfed (whatever floats your boat) you guys should stop changing every couple months the strategies and maybe look at the strategies which havent been changed for years.. like GC/LB/DS/ (HW new).

For those who say ''RA is fine right now, stop complaining'' are plain straight hypocrites. They are afraid of losing their strategy that gives them a slight advantage so skills aren't really needed. (directed to the players who play RA 24/7, bcs otherwise they cant win)

inb4 clovis quoting me with bullshit again

ra is espensive but sky menacne> ra
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Hi
Laden...
Laden...
10.07.2015 - 14:14
 Htin
RA is fine as it is
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Hi
Laden...
Laden...
10.07.2015 - 14:51
Are we done with this yet???
Laden...
Laden...
10.07.2015 - 15:20
Geschreven door Waffel, 10.07.2015 at 11:28

I think the biggest problem is that the RA tanks cost 90, which is the same amount as IMP tanks. We all know RA nails IMP in any single way, no denying that. Especially since 90% of the RA players pick countries like ukraine/poland etc. Low cost countries with decent reinforcements. That combo is just heartbreaking. If you are saying RA isn't op right now, than thats probably on you, but the strategy RA compared to almost all strategies is straight out OP.

RA basically made GC as a strategy useless, while alot of people made threads about strategies that needed boosts which included GC. Well this is certainly not how to make it.
As for saying we should make a poll to see what the ''community'' wants. Will be 100% unfair. Especially the people who came with the idea about a poll etc, always knew a way to kind of scam that poll. They will most likely pr their clanmembers and probably random people just to vote ''RA is fine right now'' and then use that as ''voice of community''.
(spoken out of experience)

I think blitz should've never got boosted and nerfed after that at all. Same goes for RA right now, I think after RA gets boosted/nerfed (whatever floats your boat) you guys should stop changing every couple months the strategies and maybe look at the strategies which havent been changed for years.. like GC/LB/DS/ (HW new).

For those who say ''RA is fine right now, stop complaining'' are plain straight hypocrites. They are afraid of losing their strategy that gives them a slight advantage so skills aren't really needed. (directed to the players who play RA 24/7, bcs otherwise they cant win)

inb4 clovis quoting me with bullshit again


you do realise gc has been boosted twice this past year. It is actually good now, people havent yet realised.
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Laden...
Laden...
10.07.2015 - 17:01
Geschreven door Permamuted, 10.07.2015 at 15:20

Geschreven door Waffel, 10.07.2015 at 11:28

I think the biggest problem is that the RA tanks cost 90, which is the same amount as IMP tanks. We all know RA nails IMP in any single way, no denying that. Especially since 90% of the RA players pick countries like ukraine/poland etc. Low cost countries with decent reinforcements. That combo is just heartbreaking. If you are saying RA isn't op right now, than thats probably on you, but the strategy RA compared to almost all strategies is straight out OP.

RA basically made GC as a strategy useless, while alot of people made threads about strategies that needed boosts which included GC. Well this is certainly not how to make it.
As for saying we should make a poll to see what the ''community'' wants. Will be 100% unfair. Especially the people who came with the idea about a poll etc, always knew a way to kind of scam that poll. They will most likely pr their clanmembers and probably random people just to vote ''RA is fine right now'' and then use that as ''voice of community''.
(spoken out of experience)

I think blitz should've never got boosted and nerfed after that at all. Same goes for RA right now, I think after RA gets boosted/nerfed (whatever floats your boat) you guys should stop changing every couple months the strategies and maybe look at the strategies which havent been changed for years.. like GC/LB/DS/ (HW new).

For those who say ''RA is fine right now, stop complaining'' are plain straight hypocrites. They are afraid of losing their strategy that gives them a slight advantage so skills aren't really needed. (directed to the players who play RA 24/7, bcs otherwise they cant win)

inb4 clovis quoting me with bullshit again


you do realise gc has been boosted twice this past year. It is actually good now, people havent yet realised.

Boosted? What exactly? It is not noticeable at all.
There should be really a forum just for only this... http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=19042
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Geschreven door Guest14502, 11.10.2014 at 09:44

Waffel for mod 2015
Laden...
Laden...
10.07.2015 - 20:52
ZexiLv
Account verwijderd
Here's a suggestion:
#1: Tanks remain, with 4 defence. But, they will have -1 def in cities
#2: You can all debate about 8 attack or 9 attack. But tanks could get a crit boost, and the collateral of tanks increased or something. That way, when tanks capture cities, it will be harder to add more tanks to your army (it also makes the person fighting ra weaker since they capture the weak cities but :/ i'm not an expert on this stuff, just giving an possibility)
Laden...
Laden...
11.07.2015 - 02:17
Geschreven door Guest, 10.07.2015 at 20:52

#2: You can all debate about 8 attack or 9 attack. But tanks could get a crit boost, and the collateral of tanks increased or something. That way, when tanks capture cities, it will be harder to add more tanks to your army (it also makes the person fighting ra weaker since they capture the weak cities but :/ i'm not an expert on this stuff, just giving an possibility)

I didn't even think about it, but... this is brilliant.

+10 collateral to tanks and bombers will seriously mess with RA's ability to recruit.
Laden...
Laden...
11.07.2015 - 05:38
 Htin
Geschreven door Permamuted, 10.07.2015 at 15:20

Geschreven door Waffel, 10.07.2015 at 11:28

I think the biggest problem is that the RA tanks cost 90, which is the same amount as IMP tanks. We all know RA nails IMP in any single way, no denying that. Especially since 90% of the RA players pick countries like ukraine/poland etc. Low cost countries with decent reinforcements. That combo is just heartbreaking. If you are saying RA isn't op right now, than thats probably on you, but the strategy RA compared to almost all strategies is straight out OP.

RA basically made GC as a strategy useless, while alot of people made threads about strategies that needed boosts which included GC. Well this is certainly not how to make it.
As for saying we should make a poll to see what the ''community'' wants. Will be 100% unfair. Especially the people who came with the idea about a poll etc, always knew a way to kind of scam that poll. They will most likely pr their clanmembers and probably random people just to vote ''RA is fine right now'' and then use that as ''voice of community''.
(spoken out of experience)

I think blitz should've never got boosted and nerfed after that at all. Same goes for RA right now, I think after RA gets boosted/nerfed (whatever floats your boat) you guys should stop changing every couple months the strategies and maybe look at the strategies which havent been changed for years.. like GC/LB/DS/ (HW new).

For those who say ''RA is fine right now, stop complaining'' are plain straight hypocrites. They are afraid of losing their strategy that gives them a slight advantage so skills aren't really needed. (directed to the players who play RA 24/7, bcs otherwise they cant win)

inb4 clovis quoting me with bullshit again


you do realise gc has been boosted twice this past year. It is actually good now, people havent yet realised.

dummy i notice how good gc and ukraine is i almost beat u with it
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Hi
Laden...
Laden...
11.07.2015 - 14:10
Just played RA with France, yesterday i played with Germany, day before with UK...
And its fucking hilarious how overpowered it is even with this high cost countries, so you all can stop with your bullshit about it "being fine"... i understand people like to believe its them who are actually raping with their skills, but get real.

Remove both cost boosts for RA tanks... their cost is ridiculous.

EDIT: forgot to say... let's all remember why the boost was made in the first place?

It wasn't made because RA was a weak strategy... it was solely made because it wasn't played much in "competitive games" and tanks were not used as much as infantry.
That was a wrong reason to boost a strategy that was viable and strong on so many different settings.
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Laden...
Laden...
11.07.2015 - 14:58
Geschreven door Waffel, 10.07.2015 at 17:01

Geschreven door Permamuted, 10.07.2015 at 15:20

Geschreven door Waffel, 10.07.2015 at 11:28


you do realise gc has been boosted twice this past year. It is actually good now, people havent yet realised.

Boosted? What exactly? It is not noticeable at all.
There should be really a forum just for only this... http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=19042

I agree with waffel
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Laden...
Laden...
11.07.2015 - 15:40
here
Account verwijderd
Imp is also useless against RA in duels. I can guarantee players with similar levels of playing, with one playing imp and another RA, that RA will be best of the two - in my experience at least.

RA can slow roll (but really just spam tanks, ahem), easy recap when capped, and just dulls the gameplay because even when imp has higher rein 10 tanks can take ~20 inf if not more. And this is not considering that it is only imp Turk with very high rein: other countries like imp Italy or imp germ is useless because it can't even produce as much as turk
Laden...
Laden...
11.07.2015 - 17:27
Geschreven door Guest, 11.07.2015 at 15:40

Imp is also useless against RA in duels. I can guarantee players with similar levels of playing, with one playing imp and another RA, that RA will be best of the two - in my experience at least.

RA can slow roll (but really just spam tanks, ahem), easy recap when capped, and just dulls the gameplay because even when imp has higher rein 10 tanks can take ~20 inf if not more. And this is not considering that it is only imp Turk with very high rein: other countries like imp Italy or imp germ is useless because it can't even produce as much as turk

Exactly! Hell, the same happens to IF. No matter how much inf and tanks you make RA still produces more to suicide on you (because that's all they do, rush) and then when your inf hold they just make some more tanks. I'm not saying there's no counter, but the counter is a bigger difference of skill than it should be. Meaning someone with just lesser skill than I do would beat me 3.5/5 times with RA. It's a ONE UNIT strat, at least nerf tank cost and give bombers/destroyers a boost to fit the theme.
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We are not the same - I am a Martian.
We are not the same - I am a... divided constellation?


Laden...
Laden...
11.07.2015 - 17:52
In my experiance (in large map) R.A is useless vs imp, as PD and imp as useless vs IF.
Laden...
Laden...
11.07.2015 - 17:57
here
Account verwijderd
Geschreven door clovis1122, 11.07.2015 at 17:44

But when I was playing Don as RA poland, I had all balkans, benelux, scandinavia, but he hold all my wave of tanks until I eventually had no reinf and he capped me...


That's cause you're not the same level of playing. Don is better
Laden...
Laden...
11.07.2015 - 21:49
 Htin
Geschreven door Goblin, 11.07.2015 at 14:10

Just played RA with France, yesterday i played with Germany, day before with UK...
And its fucking hilarious how overpowered it is even with this high cost countries, so you all can stop with your bullshit about it "being fine"... i understand people like to believe its them who are actually raping with their skills, but get real.

Remove both cost boosts for RA tanks... their cost is ridiculous.

EDIT: forgot to say... let's all remember why the boost was made in the first place?

It wasn't made because RA was a weak strategy... it was solely made because it wasn't played much in "competitive games" and tanks were not used as much as infantry.
That was a wrong reason to boost a strategy that was viable and strong on so many different settings.

it's either they were noob or you was pro
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Hi
Laden...
Laden...
11.07.2015 - 22:05
RA weaker then lots of strats no support
Laden...
Laden...
12.07.2015 - 04:22
Geschreven door America., 11.07.2015 at 22:05

RA weaker then lots of strats no support
Laden...
Laden...
12.07.2015 - 05:15
Geschreven door Htin, 11.07.2015 at 21:49

it's either they were noob or you was pro


zone almost beat mauz with ra uk, as long as youre not found out t1 it can be pretty evil.
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Laden...
Laden...
12.07.2015 - 05:15
You are all full of shit ... and to the guy above no one here can say tirpitz is a noob.
He drowned my general and 14 troops... i caped him with noobiest rush.
he recaped ...i caped again with another nooby rush.
no skills involved just raw power with stupidly cheap overpowered unit.

In the end i gave him a draw since it feelt like a pathetic, unfair win.
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Laden...
Laden...
12.07.2015 - 05:35
Geschreven door Azula., 12.07.2015 at 04:22

Geschreven door America., 11.07.2015 at 22:05

RA weaker then lots of strats no support


How about instead of posting useless comments and make it seem like a lot of people don't support this revamp (which a lot don't, but just because they can't play anything else [I should say a lot of skilled people, perhaps] ) you give explanations and reasons as to why RA is 'weaker' than lots of strats...
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We are not the same - I am a Martian.
We are not the same - I am a... divided constellation?


Laden...
Laden...
12.07.2015 - 07:05
Geschreven door The Tactician, 12.07.2015 at 05:35

Geschreven door Azula., 12.07.2015 at 04:22

Geschreven door America., 11.07.2015 at 22:05

RA weaker then lots of strats no support


How about instead of posting useless comments and make it seem like a lot of people don't support this revamp (which a lot don't, but just because they can't play anything else [I should say a lot of skilled people, perhaps] ) you give explanations and reasons as to why RA is 'weaker' than lots of strats...

Thats the point tact, those people can only say '' stop cry'' ''stop taking our strategies'' '' it is not strong, you guys cant win vs it'' '' you guys are against us so thats why you want to nerf the strategies''

If only those people could explain themselfs for once then maybe, maybe we would didn't had these kind of long boring-ish forum with only quotes with small almost nothing that matters in it.
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Geschreven door Guest14502, 11.10.2014 at 09:44

Waffel for mod 2015
Laden...
Laden...
12.07.2015 - 07:32
Geschreven door The Tactician, 12.07.2015 at 05:35

How about instead of posting useless comments and make it seem like a lot of people don't support this revamp (which a lot don't, but just because they can't play anything else [I should say a lot of skilled people, perhaps] ) you give explanations and reasons as to why RA is 'weaker' than lots of strats...


I already grave the explanation. So did we in the other threads.

You know what happened? The people who support this revamp decline to argue with us, calling us all "Trolls" and "You know nothing, leave this to the expert" and those type of comments. In fact, If this thread had came a little before, then you would see the same thing here. We grave arguments, you guys declined to face them. Even now, most of the guys who support this revamp are offering inflexible changes, that according to them is an axiom and cannot be debated.

The very minimal we can do here is to show our disagreement, do not ask us for argument anymore (even though you don't have the fault of this).






Some sources to justify my answer here.

1) We fairy won the poll. The majority of the community support RA to stay as it is. http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=20004
2) A pretty good part of the community is sick of RA topics: http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=20079
3) Most of the new threads about RA were made by players who wanted to push a nerf.


Let this thread be a shinning example of how is way better to make a topic than posting on a old one.
second one: http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=20100
third one: http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=20004
fourth one: http://atwar-game.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=20117

How much threads did we made? Just one. and I add it with his name:
Admins dont change strats before listening to the community!

and I will even go further to quote the 1st comment content:

Geschreven door Azula., 18.06.2015 at 15:49

I feel it comming. Just like they did with blitz. Some guys cry over an 'op strat' and a couple of mods support this and make sure it gets nerfed. So no. Ivan amok most of us dont want a nerf of RA!! All strats are fine and most of us just want that everything will be kept as it is now!


If you read all those posts, you will find exactly what I said. That most of our proposal were disqualified just because we disagree with you guys, heck, even I would negotiate a -1 def on tanks but I proposed it to Pulse, and he still want to push a -2 defense. Then you say you guys are trying to debate? No sir, what you guys are trying here is to push a Nerf.
Laden...
Laden...
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